Stigme

[pharaoh]

Pravi autor: Bluebird

Ali po tome bi trebao biti uvjeren da je prikovan dlanovima, ako su ti stigme već nekakav dokaz.

ok ajd prestanite lupetat.


ja sam tražio u prvom postu da objasnite manifestiranje stigmi.

VI ste počeli pisat o razapinjanju a ne ja, doduše tema je nakon vašeg zaokreta na to otišla u drugom pravcu (objašnjavanja razapinjanja a ne manifestacije stigmi).

Tako da ja doista neznam odakle vama to da su meni sigme dokaz razapinjanja na križ.

Pročitajte prvi post

[Bluebird]

A šta ti hoćeš, pa dali smo mišljenje o stigmama. Uostalom, što su stigme, ako ne ˝isusove rane˝, koje su btw nastale razapinjanjem. Ja sam primjetila nelogičnost. I šta ti tu toliko smeta?
Jedino ti nisi dao nikakvo mišljenje, ajde onda, objasni manifestiranje stigmi.

[pharaoh]

inače za vrijeme rimskog carstva na križ su pribijene tisuće


a onaj moj navod je sa wikipedie
a evo još



Skepticism

There have been historical stigmatics that were known to have faked wounds, such as Magdalena de la Cruz (1487–1560), who admitted the fraud.

Similarly self-inflicted wounds can be associated with certain mental illnesses. Some people who fake stigmata suffer from Munchausen syndrome which is characterized by an intense desire for attention. People with Munchausen hurt themselves or fake an illness hoping to end up in a hospital where they can be given attention and care.

Skeptics also point out that stigmata have appeared on hands in some cases, wrists in others, and the lance wound has appeared on different sides of the body. This suggests some form of internally generated phenomena, based on the victim's own imagination and subjective in character, rather than something of external divine origin. It is unknown, either through the gospels or other historical accounts, whether crucifixion involved nails being driven through the hands, or wrists, or what side the lance pierced Christ's body, and this would appear to be reflected in the inconsistent placement of stigmatists' wounds. However, Roman Crucifixions involved the nails driven through the ulna and radias gap, being just proximal to the wrist.

No instances of stigmata showing wounds through the wrists were noted before the publication of the photographs of the Turin Shroud showing wounds of this kind. The physical appearance of wounds is often linked to the iconography of crucifixion with which the stigmatic is most familiar.

The ratio of left side wounds to right side wounds in stigmatics approximates to the ratio of right handed to left handed people in the general population. This suggests wounding by the stigmatic him or herself.

Similarly, no case of stigmata is known to have occurred before the thirteenth century, when the crucified Jesus became a standard icon of Christianity in the west.[5]. Since crucifixes typically show Jesus having been nailed by the hands, people popularly believed this depiction to be true. As such, if one were to receive stigmata through the wrists, people would not consider it as Jesus' wounds.

In his paper Hospitality and Pain, iconoclastic Christian theologian Ivan Illich touches on the phenomenon of stigmata with characteristic terseness: "Compassion with Christ... is faith so strong and so deeply incarnate that it leads to the individual embodiment of the contemplated pain." His thesis is that stigmata result from exceptional poignancy of religious faith and desire to associate oneself with the suffering Messiah.

In 1998, Edward Harrison suggested that there was no single mechanism whereby the marks of stigmata were produced. He found no evidence from a study of contemporary cases that the marks were supernatural in origin. However marks of natural origin need not be hoaxes, he concluded. Some stigmatics marked themselves in an attempt to suffer with Christ as a form of bizarre piety. Others showed marks as a kind of religious performance art. Others marked themselves accidentally and their marks were noted as stigmata by witnesses. Often marks of human origin produced profound and genuine religious responses. Dr Harrison also noted that the female to male ratio of stigmatics which for many centuries had been of the order of 7 to 1, had changed over the last 100 years to a ratio of 5:4. Appearance of stigmata frequently coincided with times when issue of authority loomed large in the church. What was significant was that early stigmatics were not predominatly women, but that they were non-ordained. Having stigmata gave them direct access to the body of Christ without requiring the permission of the church through the Eucharist. Only in the last century have priests been stigmatised. There is currently a cluster of cases in the United States.

[Bluebird]

Da, i? Još uvijek nisi dao svoje mišljenje.

[olja]

Pravi autor: pharaoh

ok ajd prestanite lupetat.


ja sam tražio u prvom postu da objasnite manifestiranje stigmi.

VI ste počeli pisat o razapinjanju a ne ja, doduše tema je nakon vašeg zaokreta na to otišla u drugom pravcu (objašnjavanja razapinjanja a ne manifestacije stigmi).

Tako da ja doista neznam odakle vama to da su meni sigme dokaz razapinjanja na križ.

Pročitajte prvi post

priča je to o razapinjanju, jer
upravo preko krivog shvaćanja razapinjanja, može se zaključiti da su stigme produkt psihe, a ne Boga, jer On zna kako je Isus bio razapet, pa stigmatizirani ne bi imali rane na dlanovima, nego na zapešćima.
ove slike kaj si postao na početku sam vidila u knjizi arthura c. clarka, koja je izasle 80 tih, što znači da su možda i iz ranijih razdoblja, a tada nije bilo wikipedie koja je nastala jedno 20 godina poslje, di ljudi mogu pročitat da su znanstvenici danas utvrdili točnu tehnologiju rimskog razapinjanja.
stoga su si stigmatizirani neupućeni u to i zabrijali da je Krist imao rane na dlanovima, prema srednjovjekovnim slikama iz Crkava, koje su im bile pristupačne. ne kažem da su oni neki fejkeri već gorljivi vjernici koji duboko proživljavaju Kristovu patnju. naravno, vjerojatno tu ima i falsificiranja, al generalno
meni je par gore navedenih činjenica dovoljno da stvorim logičan stav prema tome.
ako ti ne shvaćaš povezanost te 2 teme, što reći.
slobodno ti reci kaj misliš,al nemoj nazivat tuđe mišljenje lupetanjem

[pharaoh]

Famous stigmatics

* Saint Catherine of Siena
* Saint John of God
* Saint Marie of the Incarnation
* Saint Pio of Pietrelcina (Padre Pio)
* Therese Neumann
* Saint Francis of Assisi
* Saint Gemma Galgani
* Blessed Lucia Brocadelli of Narni
* Saint Faustina Kowalska
* Saint Catherine of Ricci
* Saint Rita of Cascia
* Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich

[pharaoh]

Therese Neumann

Therese would later claim to have the stigmata. She said that on March 5, 1926, the first Friday of Lent, a wound had appeared slightly above her heart, but that she had kept this secret. However, she did report a vision of Jesus at Mount Olivet with three Apostles.[6]

On March 12, she said she had another vision of Christ at Mt. Olivet, along with the crowning of thorns. She also claimed that the wound above her heart reappeared on this day, and she spoke to her sister about it. She claimed the wound also reappeared on Friday of the following week. By March 26, she was claiming the same wound accompanied by a vision of Christ bearing the cross and a similar wound on her left hand. Blood was observed on her clothing, and she no longer attempted to keep the information to herself.

On Good Friday, Neumann according to her own testimony witnessed the entire Passion of Christ in her visions. She displayed wounds on her hands and feet accompanied by blood apparently coming from her eyes. Blood poured from the wounds, however - according to Neumann-critic Josef Hanauer's book The Swindle of Konnersreuth - onlookers did not actually see the bleeding in action, only the blood itself. [7] However, according to author Albert Paul Schimberg, many persons observed her wounds bleeding and these witnesses were by no means limited to her immediate family and Fr. Josef Naber. By 3 p.m. that day, her parish priest Fr. Josef Naber was summoned to give Neumann the Last Rites. By 4 o'clock, her condition improved. The wounds on her feet and hands were observed when she was bathed.

On Easter Sunday, she claimed a vision of the resurrection of Christ. For several consecutive Fridays after that, she stated she was experiencing the Passion of Christ, supposedly suffering in her own body along with all his historic agonies. She especially suffered the Passion on Good Fridays each year.

By November 5, 1926, she displayed nine wounds on her head as well as wounds on her back and shoulders. According to several sources these wounds never healed or became infected and were found on her body at death.

[dorina]

Stigme su znack neopisive Božje milosti koja je nama ljudima nepojmljiva.

Možemo mi sada razglabati kako i zašto i gdje zapravo je bio proboden... Stvar je u tome da to nikada nećemo znati i dokučiti cijelu tajnu MSU (muka, smrt i uskrsnuće), jer onda nebi ni imalo smisla da vjerujemo.

Da nam je sve jasno, Bog ne bi bio bog, bio bi običan smrtnik i "ateistima" bi bilo dosadno jer nebi imali u koga nevjerovati.

[Bluebird]

Neću odgovarat na ovo da ne bi bilo offtopica.
Pharaoh, ti jednostavno ne odustaješ od copy&paste. Ja čekam neki tvoj argument, al izgleda da ništa od toga.

[olja]

Pravi autor: dorina

Stigme su znack neopisive Božje milosti koja je nama ljudima nepojmljiva.

Možemo mi sada razglabati kako i zašto i gdje zapravo je bio proboden... Stvar je u tome da to nikada nećemo znati i dokučiti cijelu tajnu MSU (muka, smrt i uskrsnuće), jer onda nebi ni imalo smisla da vjerujemo.

Da nam je sve jasno, Bog ne bi bio bog, bio bi običan smrtnik i "ateistima" bi bilo dosadno jer nebi imali u koga nevjerovati.

a zašto ne bi upotrebljavali svoju pamet da si objasnimo neke stvari? Ako si vjernica, onda i vjerujes da nam je Bog dao razum, zar ne?
+ ovo nije tema vjernici vs. ateisti (koje i inače smatram nepotrebnima, btw.), jer si i jedni i drugi pojavu stigmi mogu objasnit na isti način...